Advanced Donkey Kong Strategies: A place to discuss tips and strategies

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Permalink Reply by MSB - Shayne Black on November 26, 2008 at 1:32am

Some barrel board tips (throughout this if I speak of levels, I'm speaking of the barrel platforms, not levels in the game):

Take a look at the barrel board. starting at the sixth level, the one Donkey Kong is standing on, and going down to the second level, the one the bottom hammer is on, you have four ladders that sort of zig zag down the center of the screen. The top one is broken but the next three down are solid. Those in my opinion are the four most dangerous ladders as you're working your way up the board. Barrels can quickly make their way down these ladders and hit you or pile up as they approach you.

Always be aware of your surroundings. Keep an eye on all the levels above you so that you know where the barrels are and how they are grouped. All too often people will charge on up a ladder only to find three or four unjumpable barrels are suddenly coming toward them because they weren't paying attention to what was unfolding two levels above. Also before charging up ladders, especially if it requires you to jog left, always make sure a barrel above isn't about to roll over the top of a ladder, especially a center ladder because you will most likely pull it down that ladder causing yourself a bigger mess. More on that in the next paragraph.

Controlling barrels: Always remember that feature wasn't put in the game to help you clear them out of your way. It was put there to cause jumpman to pull barrels toward him like a magnet, making the game much more challenging. By knowing and understanding that you can use that to your advantage by realizing there are times you have to pause for a second or two before you shift left and start up a ladder because if you don't that shift is going to cause the barrel that Donkey Kong just released to immediately roll down that first broken ladder then right down another ladder to the level your about to step onto, most likely flattening you or making your situation worse than you'd like as it lines up with one or more other barrels. I'm always watching two levels above me to see where the barrels are and where I want them to go. In the same sense that there are barrels that I definitely want to control down ladders, there are usually an equal number that I want to make sure I do not pull down ladders.

The top hammer: There are a couple of different approaches you can take when getting the top hammer and it's a bit of a points vs safety issue. The safest approach is to work your way to the far right end of the level and stand between that ladder and the end of the girder above your head. The hammer will reach just above the girder and smash barrels over your head that don't roll down the ladder in front of you. When the hammer runs out you can jump barrels as they roll over the edge above your head and when an opening presents itself you just head up the ladder or your can use short left jerks on the joystick at the right moment to turn the barrels down the broken ladder and the ladder in front of you to clear the way.

The more aggressive approach which I use is to grab the hammer and jerk the stick to the right just as a barrel is above the broken ladder. This usually brings it down on top of an already approaching barrel and there's usually a third barrel trailing that came down the ladder at the right side so you immediately have three barrels to smash. I smash them and usually get a couple more down the broken ladder before moving to the right side of it where I position myself to bring each barrel I can down that broken ladder to smash it. This technique is talked about in the guide. If a barrel doesn't come down the broken ladder I will jerk the stick as it's above the small ladder to try to bring it down that ladder. The reason I do this is because it gets to me faster this way and I can turn and smash it before I have to jerk another barrel down the broken ladder. Otherwise what can happen is you have to smash the barrel behind you at the moment you need to be controlling a barrel down the broken ladder and that barrel just rolls on by above you and you miss it.

The trickiest part to this approach is when the hammer runs out because you'll find yourself standing to the right of the broken ladder with at least two barrels approaching. What you don't want to do is cause those barrels to stagger themselves close to each other as they come toward you. This happens when one falls over the edge on the right and next one comes down the ladder on the right. If you find yourself in this situation you're most likely going to have to jump the first barrel backwards. I stay about two steps away from the broken ladder and when a barrel is above it I jerk to the left pulling it down then turn and immediately jump the barrel approaching me. Now I'm running to the right and as I jump the next barrel and I'm in the air I give the stick another jerk to the left and the next barrel above is pulled down the broken ladder behind me and I have a clear path on up the ladder. This takes some practice and is probably not the safest approach until you've done it a lot and get really good at jumping a barrel and controlling other barrels at the same time. The best approach is probably a mixture of both where you begin to move behind the right ladder as your hammer is about to run out.

Permalink Reply by TheShanMan on November 26, 2008 at 2:35am

I agree about the center ladders being the most dangerous! And I need to get better at planning ahead (looking 2 levels up) - I do that some of the time, but I need to get in the habit of doing it more.

As for the top hammer, I like to be to the right of the broken ladder, and take the exact same approach with regard to barrel control (get them down one or the other ladder). I never move to the right of the rightmost ladder except on level 1 and 2. You develop a pretty good feel for when the hammer is going to run out, and I'll start heading toward the rightmost ladder right before I think that's going to happen, using barrel control on the broken ladder to give me plenty of time to get up safely. Sometimes if barrels are in my way while doing that, I have to go back and forth a bit between the 2 ladders until I get a barrel to go down the broken ladder and can work my way up. A very important skill while doing this is being able to control a barrel in mid air. I do that a lot - jumping a barrel as you're approaching the rightmost ladder right as another barrel passes over the broken ladder.

The one additional tip I'd like to mention is when you know the hammer is about to run out and you have a barrel approaching, you risk having it run out at the last second. The simple solution is to get in the habit of repeatedly hitting the jump button when the barrel is close.

Frankly, once you are well practiced at taking either of our "aggressive approaches", I think it is actually just as safe, if not safer. If I'm to the right of the ladder then I get impatient and try to barrel control a barrel down the broken ladder rather than just waiting for a big opening to go up, and if you're not really careful with that approach, you can simultaneously pull a barrel down both ladders and run right into it. Of course, you can get skilled at doing that safely too, but the point is "aggressive" doesn't necessarily mean "risky".

Permalink Reply by MSB - Shayne Black on November 26, 2008 at 2:54am

If I'm waiting to the far right for an opening to go up the ladder to DK's level and there are two barrels coming, one above my ladder and one above the broken ladder, I slap the stick to the left which usually does cause both barrels to drop down each ladder simultaneously. If I tap it right jumpman doesn't even step forward and even if he does it's just a nudge and not enough to get hit.

Speaking of getting hit by a barrel coming down a ladder, that's definitely something that you have to develop an eye for because early on I used to get fooled a lot. Until you really become adept at recognizing that a barrel isn't coming down a ladder it can easily look like it's passing over then suddenly come down on your head. The place where I think people often get fooled the most is at that top right ladder.

Here's another hammer tip. Have you ever gotten up to the top hammer and suddenly a barrel comes down the broken ladder toward you and there's another one a step behind it? At times this can happen and that barrel is almost too close to you to hit with the hammer once you get it. If this happens, jump and grab the hammer and as you land quickly snap the stick to the left toward the wall then back toward the barrel. This does two things. First it actually scoots jumpman back a little and second, he will swing the hammer straight around smashing it into the barrel instead of swinging the hammer down from over his head which allows the barrel to pass under the hammer. There is a second alternative to this situation but it's very tricky, however if you pull it off you'll really freak out anyone watching, possibly yourself included. You have to position yourself in the right place just under the hammer or maybe half a step to the right and as the first barrel nears you, you jump toward the wall. You will bounce off the wall as the first barrel passes under you and as you bounce back to your feet the second barrel passes under you. Depending on exactly where you are standing when you jump it's possible to actually grab the hammer in the process.

Permalink Reply by MSB - Shayne Black on November 26, 2008 at 2:05pm

A quick tip on hitting barrels or fireballs above your head:

I know fireballs usually aren't over your head but they do come down ladders. Have you ever been swinging the hammer when suddenly a wild barrel comes straight for your head and just when you think the hammer will hit it, the hammer swings out of the path of the barrel and you get hit in the head? Keep in mind that whenever you turn jumpman around he sticks the hammer straight up over his head so you can effectively knock out a barrel or fireball above you simply by spinning him the other direction. I've seen some of Steve Wiebe's current million plus game (not the one with his kid screaming but the recent one) and he always stands directly under a ladder with the hammer bringing barrels or fireballs down over his head and smashing them with this technique. However I recommend only using it as a last resort when you're about to get hit.

Permalink Reply by TheShanMan on November 26, 2008 at 2:18pm

Good tips on turning around with the hammer. Occasionally I'll hammer a barrel on one side of me and during that pause I think "that barrel on the other side of me is way too close for comfort!", then when I spin it gets nailed surprisingly easily. Now I know why.

Permalink Reply by lutus on December 30, 2008 at 2:05pm

I would like to have a small discussion on the rivets level as that is where I have the most trouble sometimes depending on the fireballs. I always end up using the same pattern but would like to branch out a little if there is any positive reason to do so. On the main coinopspace page for DK is a link to this video.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiqkruSJ8lk

In the video are a number of patterns for the rivet level, but watching the video I think the two safest patterns are the STAR pattern and the WEAVE pattern. Both patterns start by going up the far left ladder and crossing the lower left rivet. From this point the weave goes up the ladder to the right of the rivet and the star pattern has you jump across the gap left by the rivet.

Once I jump that rivet, is there any consideration for choosing one pattern over another depending on firefox locations?

Permalink Reply by Paul Olson on December 30, 2008 at 4:39pm

You really have to plan which one to use at the start I think; the firefoxes are still usually on the right side at that point and it is really hard to judge where they are going to head. The star pattern leaves the rivet so you can cross to the right with the lower hammer. You have to come back down to get that rivet if you leave it, so the weave wouldn't work as well.

I almost always use the star route. If I can't get back down to the lower hammer, I'll go across and get the upper hammer, but then I still have to go get the rivet I left. It is very rare that that happens though. The only other time I change up the pattern is when I can't safely get the lower right rivet. Then I will go up and try to clear out some of the firefoxes with the upper hammer, clear the 2 rivets, then come back down for the lower rivet.

The rivet stage is where I die the least. It is very rare. You actually have a lot of control over the firefoxes. I usually stand on a ladder and push the stick where I want them to go, and most of the time they will do it. It usually gives me enough time to grab a hammer, or get out of the way. If you wait until they are close, and they don't respond, you're toast. I try to give myself as much room as possible by trying to steer them away early. I try to test it on my way up the left side when I am not in any danger, it tells me if they seem to be more likely to respond. It seems like if they respond once, they always do.

The other thing is patience, probably the thing that helped me the most watching Wiebe's video. Just wait for an opening, if you die on the rivets (or the cement factory), it should be by running out of time. Usually something will open up. I have a problem with this, and I end up pushing it and dying on the cement factory; I am way more patient on the rivets.

I die the most from barrels and on the elevators. I am still trying to train myself to watch for the next spring.

Permalink Reply by lutus on December 31, 2008 at 6:10pm

Ok, I just analyzed the Steve Wiebe DK gameplay DVD I have and have found out some interesting numbers that you may want to here. I recorded the score after every LEVEL (not board) and determined how many points he made on each level. At level 13 he stopped grabbing the bottom hammer. These gave me the opportunity to see how many points are added by point pressing the bottom hammer versus just going for the top one only. Here we go

Average per level (after level 4) with bottom hammer: 52457.14
Average per level (after level 12) without bottom hammer: 46977.77

Point pressing the bottom hammer only gave him an extra 5479.37 points per level.

I then extrapolated what his score WOULD have been if he had point pressed the bottom hammer the whole way.

High score as is (not using bottom hammer after level 12): 947200
High score if using hammer the whole way: 996514.33

Here is the kicker. His current high score on Twin Galaxies is 1,049,100. That is a difference of 52,585.67. Where in the world did he get these extra points. Where is he point pressing to get that much more.

Sorry if these was too MATHY but I thought it was interesting.

Permalink Reply by lutus on December 31, 2008 at 6:18pm

I also took note during the Steve Wiebe gameplay video of when he went for the bottom hammer, and his route on the rivet screen.

Bottom hammer was under 4 different scenarios.

1. The fireball starts coming up the left broken ladder OR the fireball is very near to the right ladder when a barrel is coming. I guess it is too risky to jump the barrel without getting the hammer because if the fireball comes up the ladder when you are jumping the barrel you don't have time to grab the hammer and then smash the fireball.
2. A grouping of barrels is coming that cannot be easily jumped.
3. The blue barrel touches the girder above the bottom hammer. As soon as it touched he went for the hammer.
4. A wild barrel. If the wild barrel was AFTER the blue barrel was released he would grab the hammer and smash the wild one. If the wild barrel was BEFORE the blue barrel was released he would avoid the barrel and continue waiting.

Rivet screen:

If the bottom left girder is number 1 and the top left one is number 4, and the bottom right one is number 5 and the top right one is number 8, Steve went in this order almost every single time:

1,3,4,2 then 6 (hammering), 5,7 (hammering) 8.

That is probably the most safe path in general. Hope that helps somebody.

Permalink Reply by MSB - Shayne Black on January 2, 2009 at 6:56pm

More Tips for the Elevators

It sounds like a lot of people here are still struggling with the springs on the 3rd elevators and up. If you're having trouble visually picking up the second spring when you start your run for the ladder, here's how I do it:

My prior tips on the elevators is in the general comments section but they really belong here where they're easier to access so I'll go ahead and repeat them and add a few things as well.

First let's take a look at the image above showing the elevator board. If you look at the top platform that DK is standing on you'll notice that directly above the ladder that you climb to reach that level is a red triangle (part of the girder). When I reach this level I step to the left so that I'm almost straddling the next red triangle but I don't want to get out there too far. When I see a spring bounce by Kong's back foot (a short spring) I immediately push Mario about two steps forward so that I'm now almost over the third red triangle. This gives me a big head start to run to the safe spot and assures I won't be hit by the next spring no matter what bounce it takes.

There are two yellow pulleys on that level. One between Kongs legs and the other is to his right, directly in the center of that platform. The yellow pulley in the center is the safe spot for anyone who isn't sure what I'm referring to. Once you're there you want to straddle the right side of it so your front foot is over the girder but you don't want to get out too far or a spring can hit you. If you're in the right place they will barely skim your head.

At this point you're obviously watching where each spring bounces between Kong's feet. Ideally as most everyone knows by now, you're looking for a spring to take a big bounce and land toward the right side of the yellow pulley under his feet. The problem of course is that more often than not, one big bouncing spring is followed by another, and sometimes even a third and fourth and if you go on one of those that following spring will kill you.

Now this is where most people struggle and it's not because they don't know to watch for a short spring to follow a long spring, it's because they can't comprehend running to the ladder and up it or retreating depending on what spring they see next.

First let's look at the second spring, the one you have to watch once you start running toward the ladder. If any part of that spring touches down to the right of Kong's back foot (look at the pic for reference) it's most likely going to kill you so you want to watch for a spring that lands between his toes and the left edge of the yellow pulley.

Now we're back to the point where many people struggle. You know what spring you're supposed to watch for but how do you spot it and decide whether to retreat or keep running up the ladder all in a split second?

In the past I've revealed basically everything I've just listed to people who have asked for my advice but I've never divulged the following to anyone until now. When I take off running I intuitively know how many steps it is to the ladder. This comes from lots of practice and paying attention. You can also tell by the running sound Mario makes. I take off running and just as I see Mario is about a step from the ladder I look back to see where the next spring is about to touch down and without hesitation I immediately know to either push the stick up, sending Mario up the ladder, or retreat. The trick is to be able to guide him for a fraction of a second toward the ladder knowing exactly when to push up the ladder as you glance at the next spring.

If I spot a short spring my eyes immediately jump back to Mario just in time to see him hit the ladder and head up. If it's a long spring I blindly jam the stick to the left then pick him up in my vision as I get back to the safe spot.

A good way to practice this is to get to the safe spot and just continually practice running to the ladder on a long bounce and then retreat back and do that over and over and over so that you get the hang of intuitively running to the ladder and identifying the next spring. As you retreat each time you'll immediately start to discern between springs you easily could have made it on and ones you definitely had to retreat on. As you become more acclimated to doing this it will become much easier to identify the correct springs and to more easily go up the ladder or retreat. The whole process will also seem to slow down a bit and won't seem like a big blur.

Here are a few other observations about the springs:

You can still safely retreat back without being killed by the next spring even if you're already a step or two up the ladder (but this isn't an ideal place to have to retreat from).

Occasionally you will get a really big bouncing spring that hits way to the right of Kong. This is a great spring to run on, the best one actually, provided it's followed by a short spring but there's a danger here too. Because it's such a long bouncing spring you can get a huge jump and if you go too soon you may find yourself halfway up the ladder before you realize the next spring is going to kill you.

If you time your jump too late you can get a super short spring to follow and it will miss hitting you then bounce under the ladder and come up and hit you in the butt killing you anyway.

This is a really dumb thing to do unless you don't care about potentially losing a man but you can actually run straight up the ladder on the 3rd elevators and up in the same manner that most people do on the 1st elevators (without running to the safe spot) if you go on the right springs.

I hope that helps everyone who's struggling to consistently get past the higher elevators. I never die on the elevators any more unless I do something stupid. As long as I follow my own procedure every time it always works. If this helps anyone please let me know in the general comments.

Permalink Reply by TheShanMan on January 2, 2009 at 8:16pm

I second the tips here. The main thing I do differently is when I'm running to the ladder after the 1st spring, I am not watching Mario at all. I have my eyes fixed on the spot where I'm looking for the 2nd spring to hit. That makes it really easy to recognize what kind of spring it is. The downside is, as mentioned by Shayne, it takes a lot of practice to know how far to run, because by the time my eyes switch back to Mario I'm usually already starting up the ladder. Occasionally I'll get the timing on moving up wrong, in which case I sometimes have to start over.

I still die on the elevators once out of every 4 or 5 times (I'm only counting level 3 or higher of course), but that's generally because I occasionally lack the discipline to follow what I see with the 2nd spring. In other words, the decision isn't always automatic yet, and on those delayed reactions it's usually too late and I know I'm going to die.

I might try adjusting my approach to match yours, Shayne, just to see if that is any easier. It's obviously working well for you, and I haven't even played in about a month so what better time to try a different approach?

Permalink Reply by Brett on April 16, 2009 at 8:18am

Wow, some really great tips here! I think with a lot of practice I just might be able to break 200k soon. Thanks guys!

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